Curse

Akaraxle · Oct 15, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Yeah, the Chilblains change was so strange it tipped me off. It was actually cool to have PvE monsters run into you and strip your dual attunements (bastards

), and now all it's become is a targetable strip that will perhaps see use only on tainted Me/N's with Auspicious Enchantment, further fueling the power creep that affects GvG atm.

Ensign · Oct 15, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

VoD at 18min is the problem. Assassin self heals are not.

I haven't found the 18 minute VoD to be of any particular problem when splitting. Usually we get pretty much everything we're going to get by about 8-14 minutes in, and after that it's stalling until VoD. Longer VoD wouldn't make splits any more viable than they are now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

2) reduce the effectiveness of defensive block web - nerfed too hard

It really wasn't nerfed, with the exception of SoD. Ward Against Melee is still dumb, you're just required to run it on an Ele now (BSurge of course). Tacticsgons still have just as much defense as before, at most they might have to run an adrenal attack over an energy attack. The same meta is still there, now with Monk and Rit runners; we'll get back to it once people figure out that all these Surge Mesmers don't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

AoE is only bad because its only really useful at VoD.

I can't agree with that at all, AoE is all kinds of useful in PvP, even GvG. The problems with AoE are that they tend to be small, slow, and in attributes that don't do anything else.

Plus LoD makes any sort of casual AoE completely irrelevant as long as it's active.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Although Ensign claims the monk runner has been more convenient than the water emo, I still had an excuse to play ele and enjoy myself.

The Rending Touch buff rendered SoR unviable in any sort of even skirmish; the character was already rather weak in a flagstand battle. It was still viable pre-nerf as long as you restricted it's roles - basically, you could never split aggressively with it, and you had to always split extra guys back when using it defensively so that the weakness of SoR wasn't exposed. It was fine with those restrictions on it, since it could do the defensive jobs, plus snare and spike.

Switching to a Monk or Rit, you lose either the snare or the spike. But you gain the ability to play as a legitimate defensive character which the water ele had lost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

I didn't expect so much negative feedback; apart from a few exceptions (like SoR), the update seems pretty solid.

It depends largely on what you think of the blockway meta. If you like the blockway metagame; if you like BSurge Warders and Tactics Gons, then this update is fine in as much as it didn't really do very much. Those characters are still fine. If you don't like that meta, this wasn't a very good update since it didn't really address it at all, and killed a lot of outlying variation (Wards on Mesmers). The main effect of the update was to cement the blockway metagame and widen the gap between the top tier templates and everything else.

Andrew Patrick · Oct 15, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

There are additional skill updates coming sometime this week. Lots of players have been providing their feedback, both on the most recent update and balance in general. We make sure that these threads, posts, and thoughts are relayed to the designers, but ultimately, it is their decision what skills get balanced. I don't know what will be changed, but I can assure you these decisions are not being made without your input being passed on.

moko · Oct 15, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

quit the badmouthing about Andrew. he supplies information -- he is not really directly involved into this, instead of jumping on the "anet says this and doesn't do shit" train, just refrain from posting, i'm very sick of these posts by now.

at least appreciate the work Andrew does for the community and keep in mind in the end it's up to the balance team.

stop blaming someone for doing his job -- passing information from the community to the balancers and the other way around -- cause he is doing his job good, even if it's unfortunately the "only" thing he can do.

anymore of this in any part of the whole board and i will seriously get mad. keep this advice in your head before posting.

thanks

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I haven't found the 18 minute VoD to be of any particular problem when splitting. Usually we get pretty much everything we're going to get by about 8-14 minutes in, and after that it's stalling until VoD. Longer VoD wouldn't make splits any more viable than they are now.

well my comment about VoD was a gross misrepresentation of the multitude of reasons people have listed for the absence of significant splitting in GvG, i just wanted to give 1 example in contrast to the quite silly assertion that assassin self heals were the reason why splitting wasnt viable, and that improving assassin self heals would not magically make splitting viable again. The thread about splitting in the Guild battle forum is pretty good if anyone cares to have a look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It really wasn't nerfed, with the exception of SoD. Ward Against Melee is still dumb, you're just required to run it on an Ele now (BSurge of course). Tacticsgons still have just as much defense as before, at most they might have to run an adrenal attack over an energy attack. The same meta is still there, now with Monk and Rit runners; we'll get back to it once people figure out that all these Surge Mesmers don't matter.

i must disagree. Ward melee is fine, any mesmer worth their salt should be able to interrupt it if teams are camping inside it. Even rangers can get it if the stand close enough. i think the paragon is going to be slowly phased out of midlines because teams will have far greater need of Sbsurge+mes+crip shot. Taking the paragon into the midline forces you to give up either the mesmer or the ele or the ranger. All three of which are substantially more useful to most teams. I can think of very few guilds with the capability of running a build of this type without them. Of course i have seen a rare few continuing to run the preupdate midline, without ward on the mesmer, relying solely on DA/SU/WY and a crip shot ranger for defense. And with the hit to SoD the defense... the defense is severely lacking. The hit to SoD is going to be telling. Its going to be telling because its going to affect the nature of midlines. People are already struggling to cope with their blind eles being shutdown, or their wards being interrupted for even brief periods of time. And the RC/Guardian monk is much more a red bars go up type of monk than the SoD ever was. Not many people died before VoD before this update, now they die in droves. I would like to have seen what would have happened with just the nerf to ward melee before a hit was done to SoD.... i favour incremental changes to the meta rather than overlapping ones, because the more you change the less easy it is to judge which changes had the most significant effects. Im all open to the hit to SoD but i think it could have been done when it was absolutely necessary and in my opinion it was just the fast cast wards that held up the block meta so strongly, it was the centre of gravity that needed hitting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I can't agree with that at all, AoE is all kinds of useful in PvP, even GvG. The problems with AoE are that they tend to be small, slow, and in attributes that don't do anything else.

Plus LoD makes any sort of casual AoE completely irrelevant as long as it's active.

Well it really depends on the build and the map etc etc. AoE is not something you can bring in every build easily, because as you point out, most effective forms of AoE appear in very narrowly focused attribute lines. This is why we dont see AoE enjoy much time on stage in GvG because other caster builds are chosen for their ability to pack a whole lot more offensive and defensive utility. In HA, AoE shines, because a good portion of the maps force teams to ball up in small areas, Antechamber and capture point HoH are two maps where AoE is extremely effective. But in GvG its entirely possible that you wont get the chance to capitalise on the AoE at your disposal until VoD and if you do get to capitalise on it before VoD its probably because you caught the enemy team in a choke point which points more at their failure. I just dont think AoE has a natural place in GvG, like it does in PvE (purely from the fact that real players dont sit inside it - it has long recharges - high energy costs - long cast times and you can spot it a mile away etc etc), and it would require much more thought and analysis to think how it could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The main effect of the update was to cement the blockway metagame and widen the gap between the top tier templates and everything else.

i think the main effect of the update was to take away our tools to deal with physicals which we had grown accustomed to, eg SoD, wards and in the previous updates aegis. And to try to buff other ones that we do not use, eg. ineptitude and god forbid signet of midnight lol.

there was a small hit to physicals to make up for the hit to blocking defenses, most significant ones being the hit to conjures and the 1/4 second axe attacks and *cough* the hit to wearying strike , but the dominance of physicals goes so much deeper than that and reducing their dominance will take far more comprehensive changes than those.

overall the unequal balance between physical and anti physical is still favouring the physical side, and im afraid the balance is tipping even stronger in their favour with the hit to SoD.

v o i d · Oct 15, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It depends largely on what you think of the blockway meta. If you like the blockway metagame; if you like BSurge Warders and Tactics Gons, then this update is fine in as much as it didn't really do very much. Those characters are still fine. If you don't like that meta, this wasn't a very good update since it didn't really address it at all, and killed a lot of outlying variation (Wards on Mesmers). The main effect of the update was to cement the blockway metagame and widen the gap between the top tier templates and everything else.

As said in the other thread, i pretty much only had problems with Paragons, SoD and unstoppable fast-cast wards - and all three got toned down. Maybe it wasn't enough, but definitely an improvement. As SoR will get changed back, there imo isn't much to complain about.

Seamus Finn · Oct 15, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But in GvG its entirely possible that you wont get the chance to capitalise on the AoE at your disposal until VoD and if you do get to capitalise on it before VoD its probably because you caught the enemy team in a choke point which points more at their failure. I just dont think AoE has a natural place in GvG, like it does in PvE (purely from the fact that real players dont sit inside it - it has long recharges - high energy costs - long cast times and you can spot it a mile away etc etc), and it would require much more thought and analysis to think how it could.

AoE is always important in a match with good players simply because if you don't have it, the other team can punish you for not having it(like jsut about any other utility). Just having the prescence of AoE can discourage a lot of plays the opposing team might want to make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The same meta is still there, now with Monk and Rit runners; we'll get back to it once people figure out that all these Surge Mesmers don't matter.

The skill update interrupted the introduction of the unblindable/protable/blockable sins. When supported properly, and assuming they remain untouched, do you think they will have any effect on the blockway meta when things return to it, as you are predicting?

Ensign · Oct 15, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i must disagree. Ward melee is fine, any mesmer worth their salt should be able to interrupt it if teams are camping inside it.

Then by your definition there are no Mesmers worth their salt in Guild Wars. In high level tournament play, the interrupt rate on Ward Against Melee is rarely better than 10%. Any interrupt on Ward Melee is a big deal, because it simply doesn't happen that often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

what would have happened with just the nerf to ward melee before a hit was done to SoD

Everyone who took out their BSurge Warder to try and get some more offense in the build would have put it back in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

In HA, AoE shines, because a good portion of the maps force teams to ball up in small areas

In HA, AoE shines because you are regularly matched up against shit teams that ball up in and tank AoE. If curbstomping sub-1000 teams was the objective of GvG play I'd bring Fire Eles every game as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

As said in the other thread, i pretty much only had problems with Paragons, SoD and unstoppable fast-cast wards - and all three got toned down. Maybe it wasn't enough, but definitely an improvement. As SoR will get changed back, there imo isn't much to complain about.

If you want to play mirror matches all day then sure, I guess there's nothing to complain about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

The skill update interrupted the introduction of the unblindable/protable/blockable sins. When supported properly, and assuming they remain untouched, do you think they will have any effect on the blockway meta when things return to it, as you are predicting?

Yeah, blockways with Rangers are going to have to learn how to split, and blockways with Paragons are going to get good at kiting and spiking out Assassins.

Falconer · Oct 16, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Well it really depends on the build and the map etc etc. AoE is not something you can bring in every build easily, because as you point out, most effective forms of AoE appear in very narrowly focused attribute lines. This is why we dont see AoE enjoy much time on stage in GvG because other caster builds are chosen for their ability to pack a whole lot more offensive and defensive utility. In HA, AoE shines, because a good portion of the maps force teams to ball up in small areas, Antechamber and capture point HoH are two maps where AoE is extremely effective. But in GvG its entirely possible that you wont get the chance to capitalise on the AoE at your disposal until VoD and if you do get to capitalise on it before VoD its probably because you caught the enemy team in a choke point which points more at their failure. I just dont think AoE has a natural place in GvG, like it does in PvE (purely from the fact that real players dont sit inside it - it has long recharges - high energy costs - long cast times and you can spot it a mile away etc etc), and it would require much more thought and analysis to think how it could.

Unfortunately the only way I've ever thought of to make AOE more pertinent in GvG is to make the flagstand an AoE capture point.

EG: you have the flag, you can actually capture it. You don't have the flag the best you can do is make it neutral. With the normal bits and pieces for getting more people in.

Unfortunately this kind of fixed place for battle tends to make ward problems even worse

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Then by your definition there are no Mesmers worth their salt in Guild Wars. In high level tournament play, the interrupt rate on Ward Against Melee is rarely better than 10%. Any interrupt on Ward Melee is a big deal, because it simply doesn't happen that often.

Unfortunately I think this is an artifact largely of the 20% fast casting focii as well. It can become very hit and miss to interupt something that already casts fast but has a good shot (1 in 3) of being fast cast in half the time as well. It's also a problem w/ network latency.

But at the same time, when you do manage to get it. It's a clear tactical opening to try and exploit... but then is the 20s window really big enough to get anything done with?

Lorekeeper · Oct 16, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Then by your definition there are no Mesmers worth their salt in Guild Wars. In high level tournament play, the interrupt rate on Ward Against Melee is rarely better than 10%. Any interrupt on Ward Melee is a big deal, because it simply doesn't happen that often.

i see it happen quite alot, if i play mesmer i am able to do it quite alot, its the same as pleaking LoD (assuming they dont get fast cast bonuses). Of course, if the 10% you quote is merely a statement on whether people actually bother to interrupt wards rather than their ability to do so that is another matter entirely. I cant subscribe to your statistic either, it seems rather contradictory to my own experience of GvG through either playing or watching. Wards on eles get disrupted alot, only today i was taking some time to watch some matches on obs and the amount of shutdown being directed at the flag stand eles was immense. I regularly saw rangers and mesmers interrupting wards and as a result of this... pressure piling onto backlines to the point of collapse. Interrupts on wards is such a big deal now because there isnt much else holding defenses together anymore, in a midline consisting of a ranger, ele and mes, and a backline with a single aegis and guardian (no more SoD), the defenses on the ele gain that much more importance. Interrupts on wards are a big deal because theres very little else preventing the flood of physical dmg getting through. Look at the comments made by people following the update... people were noticing how matches were concluding way before VoD which only usually occured in matches between 2 very badly matched guilds. Is that because blockway is still viable or is it because blockway has been destroyed and the need for blockway still exists?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Everyone who took out their BSurge Warder to try and get some more offense in the build would have put it back in.

So what you seem to be implying is this. By nerfing SoD we made the bsurge ele necessary. By making the bsurge ele necessary we have reduced the amount of offense in a build by adding the bsurge ele to midlines. By reducing the amount of offense in a build we have negated the need for SoD.

This is how i see it.

By nerfing fast cast wards we have taken away the ability to pack defense into one of the existing staple midliners, the mesmer. Because we cannot bring ward melee on the mesmer (and because other alternatives dont really exist) people must then think of fitting it elsewhere in the midline. Generally the only other midliners who can carry wards are eles themselves or necro/ele hexers. If we arent playing a hex build this means we need to take a flag stand ele again and so we see people running the old bsurge ele templates to make up for the lack of wards on the mesmer. So now the midline template consists of a bsurge ele and a mesmer, with the 3rd slot being made up of a range or a paragon.

Now because we no longer see 4 physicals as much, the need for anti-physical defense is reduced... and perhaps this means we will miss SoD less than i fear we will.

The reason why i fear we will miss SoD is because its far easier to shutdown a flag stand ele than it is to shutdown fast cast wards and an SoD monk at the same time. Defensive options were spread among several characters before this update and now they are quite strongly concentrated onto 1 midliner.

Razz L Dazzle · Oct 16, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Fewer and fewer viable options seems to have been the end conclusion of these updates. One broken mesmer bar and a whole lot of changes that were too insignificant to notice.

I'd hope that this next balance which is anticapted shortly tries a little harder to add more options rather than take them away. Don't just try to put a few 5 damage buffs on some random earth skills and expect me to dust off my Galigord stone rod.

Though i'd expect the update to do nothing more than change keystone signet, SoR and maybe SoD while the rest of these changes stay. If Izzy were to continually tweak skills for the next couple weeks till the community was happier than i'd recant a lot of what i've said about A-net. But i certainly won't expect much.

Knowledge · Oct 16, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

As said in the other thread, i pretty much only had problems with Paragons, SoD and unstoppable fast-cast wards - and all three got toned down. Maybe it wasn't enough, but definitely an improvement. As SoR will get changed back, there imo isn't much to complain about.

I seldom post on these forums, but Im going to have to ask you to rethink the part where you say theres nothing to complain about.

If you like the same, stale, and stagnant metagame that is being played currently, sure there's nothing to complain about.

Personally, I found the game much more enjoyable when the metagame was filled with variation. Yes, that means all the when there was balanced, thumpway, smite, condi-pressure, hex-pressure, split, overpowered spike, etc. Variation is what makes the game fun, not being able to beat your reflection.

The only way to get this variation is to do what Ensign is suggesting, create options. I think the best way to do this, is to balance the way Ensign has already suggested, then get fancy and add your options. Having options, is a true sign of balance otherwise, there wouldn't be any alternatives (much like now). There aren't any alternatives in this current metagame because the lack of options forces players to run a specific build, otherwise, it becomes very hard to compete just because of build. Once options are restored to the game, that is where "true balancing" will come into play, making sure there isn't one option significantly more powerful/favorable than another. Last I checked, placing something on a seesaw (although a very crude analogy), wasn't going to cause a balance. In Guild Wars, limiting options, creating a situation in which very few builds are favorable, isn't going to cause a balance.

For this type of balance, you basically have to start all over again, though that may not be too favorable in Anet's camp, and I think that is what they are trying to avoid because they want to pump out GW2. You shouldn't be moving away from the current state if its not fixed in its current state.

I would also like to contend that if indeed more options become available/viable/balanced, it will reinvigorate PvP, and bring back many unsatisfied players who have/will "jump-ship".

*edit* It is probably the politics behind the scenes that have caused the game to progress the way is has. Bureaucracy , yet again, proves to be one of the most powerful forces. This is the only reason I could come up with as to why people that have a great understanding of the game (probably greater than that of the devs), aren't being listened to.

Div · Oct 16, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

i see it happen quite alot, if i play mesmer i am able to do it quite alot, its the same as pleaking LoD (assuming they dont get fast cast bonuses). Of course, if the 10% you quote is merely a statement on whether people actually bother to interrupt wards rather than their ability to do so that is another matter entirely.

Not sure, but maybe the 10% includes all the wards that were casted, and before the nerf, most of the wards were casted by MoR mesmers, making it pretty much impossible and very unreliable to interrupt. Even against an ele with a 40/40 set, the risk-benefit in paying too much attention to the ele may not be worth it, so maybe the lower attention results in that much lower interrupt rate.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 16, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

if people get ward interrupted it's because the bsurge is bad, not because the mesmer is good.

adrifts · Oct 16, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

i think they're talking about fast cast wards of melee Me/E which is about 3/4 cast on a mesmer which is very hard to interrupt based on reaction but possible pre-emptively

bungusmaximus · Oct 16, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

(*&(*!!! didn't touch Guild Wars for a few days and this is what I come back to. I'm really disappointed that they didn't fix deadly arts and I sincerely hope there will be some tweaks yet. The amout of skill needed to shut these guys down is in no comparison to the amount of skill needed to play them (which is virtually none at all :P).

Nerfing wearying strike and leaving Melandru's alone is also pretty half assed, newsflash: 100% condition immunity is lame, dervishes are an OK class without bull like that

.

There is ONE thing I'm very happy about, spirits can burn. Big deal! one would say, but in my opinions aNet killed spirit spam in TA. 1 burning arrow and the spirit is pretty much done for. With a long bow you can level an entire spirit nest pretty damn fast. Some guy posted that they can still poop spirits faster then others can kill them, but i really beg to differ.

v o i d · Oct 16, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If you want to play mirror matches all day then sure, I guess there's nothing to complain about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

I seldom post on these forums, but Im going to have to ask you to rethink the part where you say theres nothing to complain about.

If you like the same, stale, and stagnant metagame that is being played currently, sure there's nothing to complain about.

Personally, I found the game much more enjoyable when the metagame was filled with variation. Yes, that means all the when there was balanced, thumpway, smite, condi-pressure, hex-pressure, split, overpowered spike, etc. Variation is what makes the game fun, not being able to beat your reflection.

Yeah, i have to admit i get the most out of the game when fighting mirror matches and the by far best Guild Wars matches i observed / took part in, were between teams with very similar builds (e.g. a certain iQ vs. Te match on Frozen ~March last year). That are the scenarios where you can't blame the build when you f ucked it up. That's where player skill kicks in and stuff gets competitive. Sure, i also love options: You expect an 8vs8 fight, bring a paragon instead of the ranger. You expect a VoD match, bring a splinter rit. 3/5, you take a monk or gank rit. They punish ward camping or run around a lot? Icy Shackles water instead of BSurge air. If modded balanced isn't your style and you like it a bit more extreme, conditions definitely work (Be/vZ) and even hexes are still strong (NoT). Scrubs have their blood spike, obsidian spike, paraway or thumpway with hexes. The higher the level, the more limited you are; but even for the top tier you have a few big options and tons of minor optimizations.

Guild Wars GvG activity suffers under the 8vs8 format, no real tourney events, fixed AT schedules, ladder wait times and a lack of new players due to a ridiculously high entrance barrier - nevertheless, from a competitive point of view, you can't really complain about the game balance.

Keithark · Oct 16, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Not many people died before VoD before this update, now they die in droves. I would like to have seen what would have happened with just the nerf to ward melee before a hit was done to SoD....

the dominance of physicals goes so much deeper than that and reducing their dominance will take far more comprehensive changes than those.

overall the unequal balance between physical and anti physical is still favouring the physical side, and im afraid the balance is tipping even stronger in their favour with the hit to SoD.

Everyond was crying that games were lasting to VoD before and too defensive so they leave physicals alone and nerf lots of defense (para, ward, sod, wy, etc) and I posted several times to argue against it but now everyone QQ about physical being too strong...figures

Jaen · Oct 16, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Everyond was crying that games were lasting to VoD before and too defensive so they leave physicals alone and nerf lots of defense (para, ward, sod, wy, etc) and I posted several times to argue against it but now everyone QQ about physical being too strong...figures

Did you miss the massive amount of posts that said nerfing offensive options along with nerfing the defensive web would be key?

Ensign · Oct 17, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I cant subscribe to your statistic either, it seems rather contradictory to my own experience of GvG through either playing or watching.

It's a rough average of the percentage of E/* Ward Against Melees interrupted in the top 8 of monthly tournaments. September had 10/118 interrupted, which isn't that far off the historical average. It's rare to have more than 20% of your Wards interrupted. At least in high level play, it could very well be more common further down the ladder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Look at the comments made by people following the update... people were noticing how matches were concluding way before VoD which only usually occured in matches between 2 very badly matched guilds.

The games I've played since the update against other respectable teams have all gone to VoD, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions - even when messing around with low defense dual Surge variations. It's really hard to wipe an evenly matched team badly enough to get their boat and lord without resistance, and it's a long painful process to pick off kills or NPCs against a boated opponent without some other huge advantage. Matches between good teams just go to VoD, it's part of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Is that because blockway is still viable or is it because blockway has been destroyed and the need for blockway still exists?

After about a day and a half maybe people had gotten over ESurge and were more or less back to normal. Besides the occasional Keystone guy I haven't noticed much difference in the builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

So what you seem to be implying is this. By nerfing SoD we made the bsurge ele necessary.

Either I misunderstood your point, or you misunderstood mine. Playing without Ward Against Melee is a bad idea most of the time, and if the only place you can put it is on a BSurge Ele then you run the BSurge. If you ran a Dom guy with Ward before you're probably going to have to slip back into BSurge. This doesn't consider the SoD change at all; I don't think that change had any major implications besides that Monk switching to RC more often than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

So now the midline template consists of a bsurge ele and a mesmer, with the 3rd slot being made up of a range or a paragon.

If you don't want to play one of the niche overload builds then yeah, that's what you run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Not sure, but maybe the 10% includes all the wards that were casted, and before the nerf, most of the wards were casted by MoR mesmers, making it pretty much impossible and very unreliable to interrupt.

The 10% statistic is for Ele primaries with Ward Against Melee. Mesmers effectively never had their Ward interrupted. Before the update there was a pretty even mix of Ward Mesmers (mostly HEV) and BSurge Warders in the metagame, with the VODSpike builds that made top 8 that tourney favoring the BSurge version. Now it's all BSurges for Wards.